It's more about I guess what context is this framework more applicable in? Sure it was Java based and everyone hates Java these days I guess, or at least hating Java is a meme. If you take a bunch of reusable components and a theming system. A few years ago i remember various css and js bundles spawned around Brad Frost’s atomic design movement but i don’t recall any of them lately being on HN. But the entire concept and value was that you write everything as reusable components. I could have bet there was a low quality / compressed image on this when I saw Microsoft. I start to think that this is not interesting for, for example, Microsoft because the developer market will shrink and their developers, developers, developers mantra. Take shortcuts. I was thinking about a Blazor setup.. but I will think more about the approach first. In the meantime, I built a wrapper that lets you use custom elements as if they were React components. FAST Elements work in every major browser and can be used in combination with any front-end framework or even without a framework. > they can be used in any with any framework, no wrapping required. https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/vuejs-vue-i... https://github.com/jscissr/react-polymer#readme, https://www.fast.design/docs/integrations/introduction. The fast-components package is a showcase of what this library is capable of. Then it special cases a list of attributes so that things like `class` map to `classList`. 3 is more of an interop problem within the FAST system. How much of this can you do yourself? Why? Log in or sign up to leave a comment log in sign up. The final logo we turned in had to be fixed. Not sure if it's just me but I kind of feel like these components are not very polished - at least not to the point of Bootstrap/AntDesign. Theory: web components provide a standardised component model for the web so that you don't need to rely on frameworks and a bunch of JavaScript to create interchangeable interoperable components that are no different from built-in browser components. > What’s in a name? - Vaadin Router - https://vaadin.com/router, - SkateJS: Web component server-side rendering - https://github.com/skatejs/skatejs/tree/master/packages/ssr. - The standards provide a verbose, error-prone imperative API that leaks implementation details left and right, - The API is so bad, that the official stance is "the API is aimed at library and framework developers, and you are not expected to write your components using this API". Shadow dom can be used to enable composition and encapsulate styles. Log in. Cheer up! However, HTML elements also have properties, and those do not have to be strings. Some components appear to be broken. If you want to SSR the shadow DOM itself, that's possible by inlining the template and using a small bit of JS to attach the shadow after streaming the template in. They have come far. 1. There’s no magic here, just common sense — if you need to go faster, find the quickest route from A to B. Some observations: What I meant was that are a lot of like minded developers here who cringe every time they have to hear how JS is going to teleport us from Earth to Mars. Honestly, one of the quickest loading & changing sites I've seen, and gives HN a run for its money! JSX wasn't always as well supported as it is now. > I find it hilarious that they put a dark mode toggle in the corner (why would I want this on a per-website basis?). Transform Data by Example, a Microsoft Garage project for Excel, Garage project Sketch 360 comes to Surface Duo, Microsoft Hackathon 2020 Grand Prize Winner: Customizable digital assistant, Get paid for your photos with Trove, a Microsoft Garage project, MIT students build Mosaic to explore art across cultures at Microsoft Garage, Zero Waste Certified: Sustainability at Microsoft Hackathon. We ended up going to json strings inside attributes so components take their inputs via attrs rather than reading slotted children. comune di Bologna. The bigger more systemic documentation issue is the examples pages lack a view example source mode so there isn't an easy way to discover that icons are a user choice thing rather than a prebuilt styling thing. A design system is a collection of components that fit a certain look-and-feel; it is not tied to the implementation so it can be implemented by React, Angular, or VueJS: My understanding is this is closer to something like Bootstrap but using Web Components (or material-ui if you want a react component set) than it is to React itself. However, if you don't need to implement your own design system, you can use one that we build. You can even execute it in this Hacker News page using DevTools. Ok, so it looks like the main point of this is fast-components, which is a just a bunch of components styled as MS-style, but I'm more interested in the fast-foundation package. Some of the standards that are under the umbrella include the ability to define new custom element tags, a standard component lifecycle, encapsulated HTML rendering and encapsulated CSS (shadow dom), CSS properties, CSS Shadow Parts, and more. Q: If your project was a person, how would you describe their personality? We even made sure it was truly authentic for this audience by testing the code would execute properly. There is nothing forcing you to use fast-anchor or divider. https://stenciljs.com/docs/react, 1 - https://shoelace.style/getting-started/usage?id=react. There are many reasons for that. https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/web-component... https://dev.to/richharris/why-i-don-t-use-web-components-2ci... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20232628, https://shoelace.style/getting-started/usage?id=react, https://www.npmjs.com/package/@fluentui/web-components. > I'm not a very smart person, thanks again to you and everyone else jumping on my thread to take the time to explain : No stupid questions, right? We standardised on frontend frameworks, set up and configured automated build systems way back when most web dev shops were still FTPing their shit up to servers, automated the task of installing dependencies and so forth. So I kinda mixed the two tools together in my head. In that spirit, let’s do a quick experiment — set your normal way of working aside for a few minutes so we can discuss how to accelerate being done. Faster, with a modern design, and new features – the new Outlook on the web is here ‎07-03-2019 09:58 AM During Ignite last year we announced an opt-in experience so you could try the new Outlook on the web, give us feedback, and help us shape the changes in … Yup :) They decided to go for a flat namespace where all that distinguishes between components is their name. Is this a pre-pre alpha preview of the preview? Attributes are strings. Took a quick look: Ok, let's get on to a few other items mentioned below... > You Can't SSR a Web Component - Strictly speaking, this is not quite correct. > It's a common myth that you can't server side render Web Components. Polymer was probably the first, and currently there are Polymer's LitElement, Ionic's Stencil, Salesforce's Lightning, and many more. i agree with the other that parts of your reply should be included in the FAST homepage. To drive the point home that these are web standards, here are 4 lines of code that you can execute in a modern browser console to define, create, and add a web component. What does this exactly "standardise" - given that "standardisation" frequently just means "now we have x number of frameworks to support instead of x - 1)". These are all defined by W3C and have shipped in all major browsers today. Web Components can't be directly used in React due to these limitations documented at, This is a pain point of React + web components, but I’ve heard they’re trying to solve it in the next major version. Stencil provides wrapping to circumvent these limitations. Again: I don't care who's to "blame". With the lit-html TypeScript and VS Code plugins you _do_ get checks (and auto-completion) for HTML tags, attribute, and properties. By doing this, the standard provides you with interoperability and flexibility to innovate without boxing you in. Attributes are strings, yes, but you can also set properties on a component. That's my main gripe with web components, really: instead of providing tangible benefits to developers, they ended up being "an API primarily for library and framework developers". Handling data In this case, these elements are not doing anything interesting with composition, but are providing encapsulated styles. The "fast slider" is a perfect example of how animations make something perceptually slower, and might even be problematic as it implies the underlying value change is lagging behind the UI update. Web components only specify the interface between the components and the DOM, they don't specify how the components are implemented. but hey it was my gateway drug into web development as a winforms guy. Things that FAST helps with include: providing attribute/property syncing, rich Model-View-ViewModel (MVVM), template rendering/update, style composition, etc. ", "Have you ever needed a reusable set of UI components that you could drop into your app and have an amazing experience? Indeed. And that’s the way it should be in the modern world of work. Sketch out a few different tries of that final execution. I really like parts of web components, but... I’d also like to see a Chrome experiment where JSX and TS is baked into the browser to natively solve the “stringly-typed” problem the Web Components spec has. I don't want to know the intricacies of Rect/Angular/Vue, I just want to do a declaration of the UI, not programming. I guess you could even add Bootstrap on top of Fast. For example, ES Modules are great, yes, until you have to start building your own vendor modules because somebody shipped a Webpack module as dist, for example. You could either convert _everything_ to the latest and greatest thing, or you could write your design system with web components, and it'll work everywhere. How is that good? Though the MS-style set of components (. Trust me, using this shortcut approach isn’t as crazy as it sounds. This gives you compile-time checks, and attributes can be objects. They both require an extension to core TypeScript. You can access popular apps and and services like Boomerang, Evernote, GIPHY, Gfycat, Microsoft Translator, MojiLaLa, PayPal, Trello, and more right from your inbox. > You cannot extend some (most?) So, there's strong support in tooling today and more coming in the future. Rather than following the traditional method of moving from whiteboard sketch to wireframe to prototype to high fidelity comps, try going right to the final form of your output for speed. The Fast Design approach outlined here can not only help you keep pace with the speed of development, but it will almost certainly make you a better Designer and contributor. I understand the framework concept very well and have (oh god I hate this term) "spearheaded" multiple componentisation schemes over the years, to make code more reusable across teams, to reduce coding effort, to reduce expense for the business while improving the QA outcomes for the client etc. https://www.fast.design/docs/components/accordion. I don't think that was the objetive of Web Components at all but to really create open standards around what React started a long time ago. Just do it. Comments and Reviews. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Components, https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Web_Components. They don't do the component model part of a framework. Creating a shadowroot conditionally has nearly equivalent performance to no shadowroot at all, but always creating a shadowroot is about twice as slow. Define elements in script by extending htmlelement, 2. We’re building some awesome things with them! You have to serialize and deserialize from strings. Consciously go faster than normal. Like != ? Apples and oranges. To my understanding of these components, because they are meant to be styled by the user or a downstream design system the component authors don't know ahead of time where style encapsulation needs to happen, so this approach makes sense for that. Also, clicking anywhere on the bar doesn't set the slider to the centre of the click. Server-side rendering of shadow DOM (I don't know what that really means, but) seems to be one of the tough questions yet to find a definitive answer. Interesting turn around for JS and the open source nature it has always had since its infancy with the Mozilla Browser. Microsoft FastTrack Recognized Solution Architects - Dynamics 365. Honestly just by making components and benchmarking them. Microsoft recently wrote a blog post saying they would be rallying around a single component library. Styles. You would have to try harder to entice me to be a part of your group, if you even have a group. You’ll be surprised how well this works to encircle the essence and hone in on a few key aspects. To my understanding, the point of this system is not actually how its default component looks or how rich the default components set are. Ionic Stencil let’s you wrap webcomponents and turn them into React, Vue, or Angular components. I can't send DM's here and I don't know if you'll see an edit, so I wanted to add that I am sorry if I sounded condescending in my other reply, I initially just wanted to make sure you and other readers understand I am not new to the programming game to emphasise my frustration at not being able to understand something so simple as drawing html elements, and prevent assumptions about my ability to comprehend frameworks in general, but on re-reading it sounds like I'm trying to 1-up you, in reality I do find it hard to keep up and I am fearful that things are moving beyond my ability to comprehend. But what about people who don't use React? (I'm not a front end dev myself, but do enough full stack to think I know what is going on here.). Ant shipped 1MB CSS minified, last time i used it at work. One of the worst things about Windows and other Microsoft products is the design of their interfaces and typography - not sure why anyone would ever want to use their design principles for anything. Details. it sucked hard. I always wonder where is the VB6/Windows Forms for web apps. they tried. Blue Griffon is perhaps the last remnant of that era. I’ve been right in the middle of this shift over the last few decades working as both a Designer and Coder, so I can see it from both perspectives — but it’s still a bit puzzling. A framework is the component host. Previous rant intact below for fun and hijinks. An application that communicates with elements running in the cloud has to be sensitive to the transient faults that can occur in this environment. Sciter unfortunately uses it’s own dialect of JavaScript and CSS which might not be compliant with browser JavaScript engines. > Come on. Have a look in the element inspector and you'll see the custom tag, along with its shadow dom, including "Hello World". Silence is golden for a reason ;). Using your instincts to make quick decisions is just as important as being data-informed in other methodologies. > My main fear that I developed over the years is we end up developing frameworks for frameworks instead of delivering tangible results. “Wow. Don’t be afraid to just hack things together. The other avenue is props (like ionic), but props don't show up in dom explorer, so you have to make the tradeoff. For browsers that do not yet support this new WC feature, we fall back to standard style element injection. ", "Have you ever needed to create your own components, and share them across your company, including across groups that use different, incompatible front-end frameworks? The difference here is that you may not consciously call these particular aspects out as important ways to streamline your process. So, here we are — the bottleneck in the development process. As for Fluent UI Web Components, Fluent UI is Microsoft's design language. You can’t identify something’s essence by using data — it’s a gut feel thing. That's not going to happen either. I was equally confused by fast-divider. I’m a proponent and I’m happy to discuss these things in public. For primitive data this is fine, but the system breaks down when passing rich data, like objects or arrays. That's the selling point, but is not quite true. "to share internal web component libraries within my own company, never mind some other 3rd party". -- which depend on Javascript and have no good answer to "what about SSR"? At the lowest level is fast-element, which provides a basic mechanism for defining components. Dreamweaver once did that. It’ll need to come through in how you describe what you’re doing, and be present in any interface or promotional material you create. > but using only standard HTML and JavaScript (no frameworks). They helped to build commodity UIs but when you needed more advanced one you should rely on specific components. It also has nothing to do with learning the flavor-of-the-month design thinking methodology or how to effectively do rapid prototyping. They'd immediately think "That's Fabric (or Fluent)". I might have to shut up now for a while until I run away and get back up to speed in this arena. Over time, as the industry establishes more patterns, new higher level APIs will be added, but they will be built on the low-level APIs, always leaving open the opportunity for "user-land" innovation. @microsoft/fast-element provides a thin layer of opinions on top of Web Components, lifting the level of abstraction just enough to make it easier and FASTer to build components. Very interested in the background image on their home page that slowly animates as well. At this point, something like FAST comes along and provides a thin layer of opinions, lifting the level of abstraction just enough to make it easier and FASTer to build components. for deeply nested objects, you have to serialize and deserialize from json. Fast Design S.r.l. Not unusual. You may remember when the industry used to talk about "HTML5". Since fast.design are webcomponents, they can be used in any with any framework, no wrapping required. I'm the architecture lead on FAST at Microsoft. Sometimes you swing and you miss. Possibly the best commercial for Microsoft is how ...fast... this site is. * Typing in Templates - If you use TypeScript with FAST, you can have full type checking and editor refactor support over the data in your template. So, let me give a brief explanation. After all those years of complaining about Developers being too set in their ways to go faster, Designers are now the problem. Faults include the momentary loss of network connectivity to components and services, the temporary unavailability of a service, or timeouts that occur when a service is busy.These faults are typically self-correcting, and if the action that triggered a fault is repeated after a suitable delay it's lik… * The Components Are Broken - As our first release, I'm sure it's not perfect. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@media/pref... That it doesn't change the example on the web page seems like a giant oversight, or a rendering error on Safari. As such, FAST enables properties of any type, and will provide type conversion between attributes and properties if desired. The big difference from Fast is that LitElement's render() method is an instance method, so it can access any state with `this.` and any properties and methods it uses can be overridden. When the queue is processed, all updates run as a batch, updating precisely the aspects of the DOM that have changed. For something more “batteries included,” see. [1], > They are not strictly HTML, but a subset of it, because you can't provide callbacks for their custom events. Microsoft Fast Design. All in all, I love that Microsoft is doing web components. A well-designed component also bakes in accessibility and provides encapsulation so your own styles and behaviors won’t leak in. I was looking at the code it looks optimized, will do a couple of tests later maybe combining this as the main webcomponent controller with something like tailwind css makes sense, but just using this plain look and feel I don't think it's viable at this moment but it's a good structural start I would say. In fact, our design goal was to create the world’s coolest science fair — that’s where the idea of turning it into a fun party atmosphere came from. without having to wait on the standards track, and FAST appears to intend to provide a number of such components. Follow the allowed structure in the DOM so that the custom elements don't break / conflict with anything. According to a fairly recent article (Feb 2020): Thanks for the detailed responses, and thanks for the release. As such, platform WC APIs are more like Win32 and less like Java or .NET. Which brings the question - Why do we invest (internally) and open source components? Designer News is where the design community meets. A class-based way to attach event listeners in a standard interface (which is nice), 2. what we always had to do anyway (unless framework forces using JS to inject HTML at runtime). It's hard for them not to, since they're just elements. Okay, but how its default components look and how rich the default component set is is how you sell the benefits of such a component creation system. My Mac is in dark mode but I usually prefer reading docs in light mode, so that toggle is handy. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t gotten much better. I don't know if i'm missing something, but this seems crap. LitElement is written in TypeScript so has great typings for all APIs, and TypeScript (and Babel 7) decorators. Close • Posted by 1 hour ago. I started coding BASIC in the late 80s and built websites before CSS and JS was a thing in addition to just coding stuff in whatever language took my fancy to solve whatever whimsical project I had that day, I had a particular affinity for optimising getpixel and putpixel routines in ASM when you could still directly address video memory. Totally agree on slots. My main fear that I developed over the years is we end up developing frameworks for frameworks instead of delivering tangible results. Looking forward to seeing you around! ... Microsoft went all in on accessible design. but 15 years later im back to aspnet webforms because of legacy apps the client doesn't want to upgrade yet. I see a number of comments that indicate some folks aren't familiar with Web Components. have a slot and nothing else? https://www.npmjs.com/package/lit-analyzer, For other Web Component libraries: * They Don't Work Without JavaScript - This is true today not just of WCs but of every front-end framework (without leveraging SSR). In comparison, the process of Designing remains slow and still clings to the methods of the past. This year, using Fast Design, it only took about a day to conceptualize and execute as a final piece of vector artwork. The FAST system provides and encourages use of the "layer" recipes to be used as app-region background colors but this implementation of the DesignSystemProvider does not facilitate doing so. Sounds like they ship a framework with the browser and call it "standard". Are you saying taking shortcuts in our process is the answer?”. 4. So it's basically a convention-based standard rather than a fixed standard? But being honest, it’s never fun to discard or replace finished work. Microsoft has been aggressively driving accessibility in products and services through its inclusive-design mission. No. JS code is always slower than native html parsing code. What help do you need if any? You'd probably still want to use React or similar ontop of it, but in the future we might get much lighter libraries covering that side of things. This should just be kept in mind when choosing WCs. attributeChangedCallback will only be called when the attribute changes. I care about whether I can just use Web Components in any web framework, which is not the case. Technical Level: Intermediate Summary How to disable Fast Startup on your Windows 8/8.1 OS if it's causing problems regarding shutting down, etc. Creator of a popular web component library here. Really?” say many classically trained Designers. This was also an umbrella term for a collection of new HTML standards. I know the developer of Framework7.io has a tool to take his components (not webcomponents though) and make them into React/Svelte/Vue native ones. But it's all just as declarative: They detect your OS preference and display their light/dark style automatically based on that [1]. Can someone tackle the hot mess css is? This is the third layer. The only non-standard thing there is that CSS glue construct: I meant creating a web component based widget library and sharing that for use on anything from desktop GUIs to web sites. You can use smiley faces & frowny faces for open and closed if you prefer, or you can use plus and minus signs in either order or anything else. Because FAST is built on Web Components, it does not create its own component model; it's using the standard component model. Qual è la tua velocità di download? The important word here is Web Components, which are like React or Vue components but using only standard HTML and JavaScript (no frameworks). Ah, thanks for the clarification. The accordion tag doesn't make any assumptions about icons. I'll probably emulate a lot of them for the next webcomponent based design system I'm working on. Make Microsoft Edge your own with extensions that help you personalize the browser and be more productive. Whats the value? Only if misused, which is also possible to do in any framework or even plain HTML. I.e. This latter looks good, I hadn't seen that before. Forgive me if I don't get what's happening here. Different, incompatible front-end frameworks? are all dead and unmaintained. For all the comments asking what's the difference between this and Bootstrap, Ant, jQuery UI, React, Vue and friends: > The important word here is Web Components, which is like React or Vue components but using only standard HTML and JavaScript (no frameworks). Css breaks do much shit for me to the point where I don’t want to code, If you use React, you might like Rebass (, Don't want to be ride but that is yet more JavaScript fragmentation. It'll take me a while to get up to speed. At first glance it seems the fast-components are akin to material components and fast-foundation kinda reminds of angular cdk. A FAST design system is implemented by a DesignSystemProvider custom element that lists the custom properties to be consumed by component stylesheets. That's because the standard defines low-level protocols, rather than high-level abstractions. This allows a web component to work like any normal HTML element. Oh, and you can extend existing built-in components with your own behaviours. All it means is instead of just creating children for the element, you have to create them and add "slot='item'" to all of them. The project homepage is easier to understand than text: At first glance, while the intro tries to differentiate the product from Fluent UI, I doubt anyone, even the most enthusiastic devotees, would read this... For anyone who would like to take a look at the code for the respective packages, here it is: The slider performs terribly on Android Chrome, On mobile Firefox the side menu is quite janky. To collectively rally around a single UI library for our web components—Fluent UI. FAST provides an innovative theming system called Adaptive UI, which builds design system properties that designers use every day directly into every component. This is the third layer. View discussions in 2 other communities. “Design is doing some stellar work these days, but it isn’t moving as fast as we need it to. Nel giro di qualche secondo, il semplice test di velocità FAST.com ti fornirà una stima della velocità del tuo ISP. Like tab ordering and stuff is dealt with automatically? I'm guessing this already leads to collisions between different versions of the same element. You do need to focus though, as you’ll see in this next example. My pardon, I didn't get the "to share" part, who share, what, and with whom? Also I can see now why no one really answered the question about ARIA tab orders and accessibility, it's not the job of these libraries.
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